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Bergen: As we鈥檝e been talking, it鈥檚 great to hear the differences in the work that each of you are doing. There鈥檚 this common thread of storytelling and the way each of you have applied your interests and skill sets in ways of connecting. I鈥檓 curious, what are some ways you engage with your audience?

Ramachandran: The last two years the number of in-person interviews has dramatically dwindled. A lot of it has been sourcing engagement through social networks. This year I鈥檝e been experimenting with the audio function on Twitter to host conversations and see what issues people want to talk about. Some of the discussions ended up being more substantive and more engaging than I had expected, so it鈥檚 been a good experiment so far.

Branch: Most of my connections are still pretty traditional with readers. It鈥檚 the usual social media and reader comment kind of channels. I鈥檒l give you an interesting quick story, though. We did a big multimedia piece on a story I wrote about 18 months ago about the threat to some of the iconic tree species鈥攖he redwoods, the sequoias, the Joshua trees in California. A musical director at a pretty big concert hall here in California was moved by it and was trying to figure out how to connect arts to climate change. He commissioned several composers to write pieces off of that story. They鈥檒l be performing unique and original works based off something I wrote, which has never happened to me before.

Bergen: Amazing. Whoever thought you鈥檇 be the muse to an orchestral performance? Jackie, has social media changed how you engage with your audiences?

贵辞谤迟颈茅谤: I鈥檝e never not had social media as a journalist, so it鈥檚 not that different than what I was doing before. (The pandemic) has meant a lot of over-the-phone interviews that I would really have preferred not to do over the phone, but that鈥檚 just the way it had to happen. It鈥檚 been really difficult to have patients, family members, nurses, doctors crying to you on the phone, talking about how difficult it鈥檚 been treating people or going through COVID, and you鈥檙e not there in person. A lot of them didn鈥檛 want to have video on while we were talking. I think that has been the hardest part of the pandemic for me.

Bergen: That鈥檚 interesting. I brought my generational perspective to this because I wanted to delve into how social media may have changed some of your work, but you鈥檙e reminding me that this has always been part of your reporting.

贵辞谤迟颈茅谤: I covered the Planned Parenthood shooter in 蜜糖直播 Springs. None of the institutions were on Twitter so I couldn鈥檛 pull any information from that. I was doing live updates because there was this shooter on the loose in 蜜糖直播 Springs, and it was when people were traveling. It sounds morose to say, but we鈥檙e going to have another breaking news situation, and so now that institutions are actually putting that information out there, it helps from a journalistic perspective.

Ramachandran: In some ways it鈥檚 broken geographic barriers to reach people around the country or world. But in another sense, particularly when trying to reach marginalized communities, are we self-selecting the sorts of people who would want to speak out anyway or who are comfortable with engaging on those platforms?

When I was doing a lot of reporting on the pandemic spike in anti-Asian hate crimes and incidents, there were a lot of folks on the forefront talking about the issue on social platforms. But when talking to some of the folks who have been personally impacted by these issues, it鈥檚 trying to build rapport with someone whose child has been stabbed in a parking lot because of a hate crime. Trying to do that interview over Zoom is just a very different dynamic versus really ingraining yourself in the community and trying to understand the story and all its nuances and complexities. I think in some ways (Zoom) is such a useful tool, but in other ways, I think it鈥檚 a means to launch a conversation in a traditional way.

Branch: I think it鈥檚 just a different conversation when you and I are looking at each other, even if it鈥檚 through a camera. But I do worry that media companies will use it as a crutch and not send people out because it鈥檚 too simple and much cheaper to do it this way. I still think the best reporting is face to face, in person, not face to face over a monitor. It鈥檚 a totally different dynamic. I mean, I can see you in your little box right now, but I don鈥檛 know what the environment is around you. There鈥檚 not a whole lot of spontaneity when you and I are talking like this. There鈥檚 no, 鈥淟et鈥檚 just jump in the car and go get coffee somewhere,鈥� or I can鈥檛 see what you have posted on your refrigerator that might elicit a whole line of questions.

Bergen: Good point, John. I鈥檓 curious, what form is most of your content being created in and how is it distributed to audiences?

贵辞谤迟颈茅谤: Everything I do is multiplatform, from a 20-second spot to a full-fledged feature. If I go out to do a story, it鈥檚 pictures, tweets while I鈥檓 there, video, hopefully, depending on what鈥檚 happened. We create content specifically for TikTok. Usually I鈥檓 trying to find sources, but sometimes just to engage audiences. I kind of feel like the legacy journalists are just kind of catching up, to be honest with you, now that The New York Times and The Washington Post are like, 鈥淥h, audio is a thing.鈥�

Bergen: Well, that sounded like you guys need to respond to that one.

Ramachandran: Honestly, the last 10 years have been everything from print to writing for the web to audio work to video work to data analysis. I think the best editors have always given me the advice to just tell the story in the medium that tells the story best.

Bergen: I love that. It鈥檚 what we try to teach our students, but it always sounds so much better when somebody else says that.

Branch: I鈥檒l say that what has been one of the changes post-鈥淪now Fall鈥� is we have had a lot more conversations about the best way to present the story. Now, it鈥檚 like, what if this is nothing but a photo essay? What if this is actually a big, dynamic graphic? What if it is text? What if it鈥檚 video?

I鈥檓 working on a story now that we hope to make a full-length documentary. Some of my stories they鈥檒l have me read so we can deliver them to podcast and audio audiences.

I think it has kind of exploded the environment and the imagination that we have for what鈥檚 the best way to deliver this to people. It鈥檚 exciting times to be a part of it.

Making a difference

Bergen: Could each of you talk a little bit about your experience with how journalism has made a difference?

贵辞谤迟颈茅谤: I was the only health journalist in Oklahoma. We had a huge opioid lawsuit against Purdue (Pharma) settled, but Johnson & Johnson was the one that actually went to trial.

The trial happened to be in the town that I lived in, Norman, Oklahoma. I did a bunch of stories leading up to it, and then I just filed and filed and filed with NPR鈥檚 newscast. I was the only reporter that was there every day.

Because I tweeted the whole thing鈥攁nd that was really the only way that people knew it was happening because it wasn鈥檛 being broadcast live鈥擨 had a ton of people following me on Twitter, both for and against opioid companies, which was interesting.

It showed me how important local journalism is because I was there. I had other journalists telling me the only reason they came was because their editor heard what I was doing and thought, 鈥淥h, we better get over there.鈥� Parachuting in has its merits in some cases, but most of the time you need local people who know the ins and outs and the subtleties of what鈥檚 going on.

Bergen: Although my question was, how does journalism have an impact, what you鈥檝e really underscored is, journalists have an impact.

Ramachandran: Before the pandemic, I worked for ProPublica鈥檚 Chicago office. We were local reporters living in the communities that we were reporting on. There were tangible impacts of laws changed. We had colleagues who did investigations on the tax assessment system there; the corrupt assessor who ended up getting voted out the next election; how they were targeting Black and brown communities of Chicago in disproportionate ways; and then how those policies were kind of changed in Chicago.

In my own reporting on Asian American communities, it鈥檚 interesting to see a different sort of impact. I did a few stories on how South Asian Americans have a higher risk of cardiovascular ailments, and I got emails saying, 鈥淗ey, I signed up to get a heart scan,鈥� or, 鈥淚鈥檓 going to be talking to my primary care doctor.鈥�

Branch: One theme I鈥檝e had the last 10 years has been stories about CTE, the chronic brain disease caused by repetitive hits in a lot of sports. I鈥檓 here in 蜜糖直播 right now, and I just saw a friend the other night who said, 鈥淚 can鈥檛 watch hockey the way I used to anymore, thanks to you. I can鈥檛 watch football the way I used to because of the reporting that you and your colleagues have done.鈥�

You know, anytime you hear somebody talk about political news or sports news or celebrity news, or on global news of some sort, I want to say, 鈥淵ou realize that鈥檚 media, right? You鈥檝e been bashing the media, but you realize everything that you talk about, everything that connects us through conversation is media.鈥�

I just want people to remember, there are real people behind this news.

Moments of joy

Bergen: I鈥檓 just curious, are there moments of joy in your work?

Ramachandran: I think when you tell the stories that you want to tell, tell the stories that impact folks, that kind of stuff is what keeps me going.

Branch: I find joy in small places, like when I鈥檝e written a nice sentence. Most of my joy comes in very private moments: When I鈥檝e received a callback that I鈥檝e been waiting for, or just got off the phone on a really good interview, and I can鈥檛 wait to tell my editor what I鈥檝e just found out.

贵辞谤迟颈茅谤: I think I find the most joy when I get to take a listener somewhere that they don鈥檛 normally go or hear from someone that they wouldn鈥檛 think to speak to. What I really love about audio is that I can take 20 seconds and let that quote breathe. It has a pacing to it. It鈥檚 very experiential.

Trust and credibility

Bergen: What are the biggest challenges you face as journalists?

Branch: Credibility and maintaining trust with audiences that are as fractured as ever. I work in what鈥檚 derisively called the mainstream media. I worry about how we get that mainstream news to a wide swath of people, across socioeconomic lines, across political lines, across racial divides, so that we鈥檙e all working with a core set of facts. That鈥檚 become trickier and trickier as the years have gone by.

Bergen: And that鈥檚 probably not going to change in the future.

Branch: Our goal at The New York Times is to keep delivering truth as we believe it should be told and hope that people come around, and not try to bend to certain people, not just play to your audience. I think that鈥檚 what the original journalism tenets were鈥攄eliver truth as unbiased as possible and let people absorb it as they absorb it, but don鈥檛 try to steer your news to an audience necessarily. That鈥檚 tricky, because you get into conversations about bias and unintended biases and so on. We鈥檝e been doing it for 170 years. We鈥檒l keep going and hope that more people keep believing what we鈥檙e delivering.

贵辞谤迟颈茅谤: I would add to that: staying relevant. In order to be consumable by younger audiences, we really need to get more Black and brown people in newsrooms and in positions of power within newsrooms. You know, I can think of one public radio station that has a woman as the CEO or president off the top of my head. So, we talk about diversity all the time. We talk about diversity in sources, but we really need more diversity
in journalism.

Ramachandran: I feel like earlier in my career, I would鈥檝e said it鈥檚 the economics of journalism, which I think is definitely a concern, but it feels like we鈥檙e going to figure that out. But to John鈥檚 point, I鈥檓 personally very concerned鈥攁nd I feel like it鈥檚 a challenge for journalism鈥攖his credibility and trust question. I think that鈥檚 just the biggest thing we鈥檙e going to be grappling with for many years.

贵辞谤迟颈茅谤: I will say having been a reporter in Oklahoma at a public radio station where people don鈥檛 really like journalists, that as I consistently did accurate, solid reporting, I got respect. It took a little while, but as I kept doing the good work, people realized that I wasn鈥檛 biased.

Bergen: Just a good reminder how much relationship building can have an impact on this.

Branch: To what Jackie said, that鈥檚 my mission, just keep doing the good work. I don鈥檛 know what else we can do.